We don't get a vote, but if we did...

If roundball is your blood, this is the place to discuss the Flames as they move into the Ritchie McKay era for the 2nd time.

Should Dale Layer be fired?

Yes
47
73%
No
16
25%
He only keeps his job if we win the Big South again
1
2%
 
Total votes : 64

We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby BuryYourDuke » January 23rd, 2014, 10:27 am

Time for a poll...fire Layer?
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We don't get a vote, but if we did...

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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby -army56mike- » January 23rd, 2014, 1:30 pm

Coach Layer

2009–2010 ..... 15-16 ..... 10-8
2010–2011 ..... 19-13 ..... 13-5
2011–2012 ..... 14-18 ..... 9-9
2012–2013 ..... 15-21 ..... 6-10
2013-2014 ...... 8-12 ..... 2-3

At Liberty: .... 72-88 ..... 40-35
---------------------------------------
Ritchie McKay
2 Seasons
Record: 39–28

Randy Dunton
6 Seasons
Record: 77–102

Mel Hankinson
4 Seasons
Record: 36–77

Jeff Meyer
Winner at LU

There is obviously a recent culture of losing for the Flames. Coach Layer had one good season. Was that catching lightning in a bottle? His body of work over his tenure at LU suggests he cannot build the program. However that seems to be the case with all coaches after Jeff Meyer. I think it's gonna take shelling out big dollars to keep a quality coach around. That doesn't mean you have to go after a big name. You just have to pay a winner.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Bigsouthking » January 23rd, 2014, 2:38 pm

dang Army Mike --

LU pays Layer 302k how much more do you want them to pay a coach??? Avg BS salary is probably 160k....
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby -army56mike- » January 23rd, 2014, 2:41 pm

All that says is we are way overpaying to lose games.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jcmanson » January 23rd, 2014, 2:42 pm

If/when he gets fired, bring back McKay.

I'm joking, I think
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 2:47 pm

I wouldn't. I don't think Layer is the greatest coach in the world, but I think he's a great fit for our program. When it comes to Men's Basketball in today's world you have one of three options:

1) Bring in kids that are talented but not stars but will fit in and be good representatives of our school that are talented and can be coached and formed into a team (i.e. John Brown, Jesse Sanders, Antwan Burrus).
2) Bring in kids that are super talented but something is keeping them back from the next level (i.e. Seth being too small, Austin Smith being too small for a 5 but not athletic enough for a 3, Andrew Smith is a good example of this right now).
3) Bring in kids that are super talented but don't fit our culture (i.e. Brolin Floyd, most of the team in the Dunton regime, etc).

Layer is doing #1. McKay did #2. Dunton did #3. Where McKay tried to get as much talent, regardless of position, on the floor and go with it, Layer is trying to form a solid team. In my mind, at our level and our school, the McKay approach is best, but the Layer approach is my next option. That means you're going to have 2-3 years of mediocrity for every year of championship level. This year is an anomaly because I really think the seniors (specifically the guards) are to blame. We don't have a guy that will step up and be a floor general.

I'd be willing to bet that next year, with less experience, we will have a better team because the chemistry will be better.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 2:49 pm

jcmanson wrote:If/when he gets fired, bring back McKay.

I'm joking, I think


I'd be all for it.

I truly think that the reason he left is because Seth bolted and he knew he was going to have to completely rebuild a year after completely rebuilding. Add that to his best friend getting a job an hour up the road and you have a perfect storm for a guy wanting to take a break with a little less pressure. With a firm foundation, and not having to clean up the Dunton mess, I think he could come in and be super successful. I don't see it ever happening, but I think Ritchie McKay is the ideal type of person to be a coach at Liberty.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Bigsouthking » January 23rd, 2014, 3:19 pm

McKay didnt bring in anyone except Curry.. SJ you put him(McKay) on a high pedestal like hes a big time recruiter, He has failed at every job hes been a Head Coach or he beat the posse and left.

He failed at New Mexico and look what they have done since he got fired.... top 25 every year

He inherited a great player in Anthony Smith. Got lucky with Sanders that the Rice coach got fired.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 4:08 pm

He brought in talent and they all left. To say that Brolin Floyd and Austin Smith weren't talented is just dumb. And whether or not he got lucky with Jesse, he still got Jesse here. Ritchie can recruit but his coaching lacks.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jinxy » January 23rd, 2014, 4:37 pm

Pointless discussion. Thanks to the extension theres no way its happening though it should be considered carefully
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby flameshaw » January 23rd, 2014, 4:45 pm

If we bring back any one, it should be Jeff Meyer. With his experience since he left here, I am sure he could be very successful and would be much more cautious hiring his staff. But I don't see that happening. I doubt he would come back and truthfully, we should move on to someone else, if indeed a change is made.
We need to identify the next Romar and see if we can get him before a big high profile university comes calling. Or, pay someone major bucks and make a splash hire. A coach can make a huge impact very quickly in BB, just look what Marshall did at Winthrop and Wichita State. Winthop hasn't been the same since he left and WSU was rated in the top 10 earlier this year.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Purple Haize » January 23rd, 2014, 5:04 pm

flameshaw wrote:If we bring back any one, it should be Jeff Meyer. With his experience since he left here, I am sure he could be very successful and would be much more cautious hiring his staff. But I don't see that happening. I doubt he would come back and truthfully, we should move on to someone else, if indeed a change is made.
We need to identify the next Romar and see if we can get him before a big high profile university comes calling. Or, pay someone major bucks and make a splash hire. A coach can make a huge impact very quickly in BB, just look what Marshall did at Winthrop and Wichita State. Winthop hasn't been the same since he left and WSU was rated in the top 10 earlier this year.


This is the only person I'd 'bring back'. He looks different after dropping a bunch of weight

http://www.letuathletics.com/coaches.aspx?path=&rc=7
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Lburglifer » January 23rd, 2014, 5:57 pm

SuperJon wrote:I wouldn't. I don't think Layer is the greatest coach in the world, but I think he's a great fit for our program. When it comes to Men's Basketball in today's world you have one of three options:

1) Bring in kids that are talented but not stars but will fit in and be good representatives of our school that are talented and can be coached and formed into a team (i.e. John Brown, Jesse Sanders, Antwan Burrus).
2) Bring in kids that are super talented but something is keeping them back from the next level (i.e. Seth being too small, Austin Smith being too small for a 5 but not athletic enough for a 3, Andrew Smith is a good example of this right now).
3) Bring in kids that are super talented but don't fit our culture (i.e. Brolin Floyd, most of the team in the Dunton regime, etc).

Layer is doing #1. McKay did #2. Dunton did #3. Where McKay tried to get as much talent, regardless of position, on the floor and go with it, Layer is trying to form a solid team. In my mind, at our level and our school, the McKay approach is best, but the Layer approach is my next option. That means you're going to have 2-3 years of mediocrity for every year of championship level. This year is an anomaly because I really think the seniors (specifically the guards) are to blame. We don't have a guy that will step up and be a floor general.

I'd be willing to bet that next year, with less experience, we will have a better team because the chemistry will be better.


Last year was a debacle accept for one week....did you come to the empty Vines Center? I do not believe the program has been managed well from AD down. How can you justify the investment and results?
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby ballcoach15 » January 23rd, 2014, 6:05 pm

LU just needs to recruit a better athlete for basketball. With our facilities, we should be 1 or 2 in Big South every season, just like the women's teams. Most every team that comes to Vines Center has better basketball players on the floor than LU. Bring in guys that can run and shoot.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 6:15 pm

You guys aren't getting it. We are a school that is anti-basketball culture. There are things in the way of just getting more talent here. Look at the exceptional talent we've brought in the past five years:

BJ Jenkins - transferred.
Seth Curry - transferred.
Brolin Floyd - transferred.
Evan Gordon - transferred.

The guys that are exceptional talent in basketball don't want to deal with the extra things that Liberty students have to deal with.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby flameslinger » January 23rd, 2014, 6:19 pm

I'm not a Vol fan, and I'd guess SJ can give more insight into how these coaches are viewed in Knoxville, but if I were looking for an assistant to make my new head coach, and one that fits LU's culture of faith and can recruit talent, I'd be looking down 81.

http://www.utsports.com/sports/m-baskbl ... aches.html
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Sly Fox » January 23rd, 2014, 6:20 pm

Haize never ceases to surprise me dropping a link to LeTourneau. And no, we're not letting Coach Layer go to bring back Coach Davis.

As for RMK, I doubt he would be interested in pushing his friend out of the way to come back.

For the record, I believe the staff recognizes the need for more athleticism and we saw attempts to address the issues in the fall signing period.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 6:24 pm

flameslinger wrote:I'm not a Vol fan, and I'd guess SJ can give more insight into how these coaches are viewed in Knoxville, but if I were looking for an assistant to make my new head coach, and one that fits LU's culture of faith and can recruit talent, I'd be looking down 81.

http://www.utsports.com/sports/m-baskbl ... aches.html


The problem with Cuonzo Martin is that he's surrounded himself with guys that are exactly like him. He's a good coach and recruiter, but there's no energy from the coaching staff.

I don't know if he's ready or not, but if we're talking about guys on that staff, Jon Harris would be the one I'd look at. He's a super solid Christian and overall good dude.

Then again, Layer is our coach and that's not changing (and I'm not sure I'd want it to).
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby BuryYourDuke » January 23rd, 2014, 6:30 pm

Jason Allison.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby thepostman » January 23rd, 2014, 6:34 pm

McKay and layer would make the perfect coaching duo for liberty. I know we had that already.

Hey it's bit like liberty hasn't brought back coaches again in basketball. Wait that didn't go so well either.

All that aside we need a fresh start. This is the year we should be at the top of the league. Or close to it. It's not happening.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 6:36 pm

BuryYourDuke wrote:Jason Allison.


Before I comment, let me first say that I think it's crazy that we're talking about replacements while we have a head coach that I really like as a person and leader.

With that said, I love me some Jason Allison.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Purple Haize » January 23rd, 2014, 6:37 pm

Sly Fox wrote:Haize never ceases to surprise me dropping a link to LeTourneau. And no, we're not letting Coach Layer go to bring back Coach Davis.

As for RMK, I doubt he would be interested in pushing his friend out of the way to come back.

For the record, I believe the staff recognizes the need for more athleticism and we saw attempts to address the issues in the fall signing period.


Bob Davis would be a perfect fit here, but unfortunately, it won't happen

Jason Allison is still too young but definitely someone who would be a great fit
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby thepostman » January 23rd, 2014, 6:44 pm

SuperJon wrote:
BuryYourDuke wrote:Jason Allison.


Before I comment, let me first say that I think it's crazy that we're talking about replacements while we have a head coach that I really like as a person and leader.

With that said, I love me some Jason Allison.


I hate talking about it too. Layer is the coach I have liked the most. I really want things to turn around right now and help this man keep his job. He deserves it but when your team isn't performing this is what happens in D1 basketball.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby BuryYourDuke » January 23rd, 2014, 7:32 pm

I LIKE Dale Layer. He's a super nice guy, and he's been nothing but great when I've been around. Doesn't change the fact that his teams have consistently underperformed.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SeoulFlame » January 23rd, 2014, 8:28 pm

Purple Haize wrote:
Sly Fox wrote:Haize never ceases to surprise me dropping a link to LeTourneau. And no, we're not letting Coach Layer go to bring back Coach Davis.

As for RMK, I doubt he would be interested in pushing his friend out of the way to come back.

For the record, I believe the staff recognizes the need for more athleticism and we saw attempts to address the issues in the fall signing period.


Bob Davis would be a perfect fit here, but unfortunately, it won't happen

Jason Allison is still too young but definitely someone who would be a great fit


Jason is older than Josh Pastner of Memphis. Just sayin.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby LUconn » January 23rd, 2014, 8:45 pm

A couple of things. If you're going to look at records, look at BSC records. As we know, overall records don't mean a darn thing at this level. Maybe if we were winning the conference year after year and we were looking for a better seeding that would come into play but we're a long ways off obviously.

Second, we're judging Layer based on performance. Not performance relative to salary. If he were making $25k a year would we be naming the court after him? LU is going to pay what it's going to pay. It's not even worth talking about.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby LUconn » January 23rd, 2014, 8:50 pm

Why does Allison always get brought up here? He could be the next Bob Knight just waiting for his chance, but all I know is that he's an assistant at a middle of the pack Big South school. Is it because of his LU ties?
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby BuryYourDuke » January 23rd, 2014, 10:41 pm

Being an LU guy is a big part of it. He understands what kind of kid will succeed here, he understands the culture. This is a place I believe he would want to be. He is young, aggressive, and a very good recruiter. He's recruited some of the most talented players in the BS over the past few years. And that's to go to VMI, which has some of the same "disadvantages" we have on recruiting.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby thepostman » January 23rd, 2014, 10:47 pm

some may argue that VMI's dynamic is even more challenging then ours. I think he would be the right fit if we end up looking.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 23rd, 2014, 11:05 pm

Barber wouldn't hire him. Not a big enough name.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby thepostman » January 23rd, 2014, 11:50 pm

Was Dale Layer a big name? I mean I guess compared to Jason Allison he is.

PS It is kind of sad how true that is.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Sly Fox » January 23rd, 2014, 11:52 pm

He had more impressive credentials at the time of his hiring than Jason has right now. But they are in different stages of their careers.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby thepostman » January 24th, 2014, 1:07 am

But I still wouldn't call him a big name hire.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 24th, 2014, 8:14 am

I'd say that was a different situation. He was the top assistant at Marquette. In the coaching world, Layer is well known. We were also trying to save a sinking ship and went to someone we knew and the player knew.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Bigsouthking » January 24th, 2014, 9:11 am

If Meyer would have never gotten fired or run out of town Allison would have been on staff the day after he graduated. Those 2 are tight.

How bout John Jones? He's a LU grad and just won his 200th college game. He also worked under Greg Marshall at Winthrop for a season.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jinxy » January 24th, 2014, 9:28 am

4 things are clear that we all keep repeating. First, layer is a stand up guy and fits what we do perfectly. Second, he inherited a mess. Third, he has underperformed the last two years with his recruits and has whiffed on 5-7 players the last 3 years. Fourth, he has an extension no matter how dumb we think it was and its going to keep him here a couple more years regardless. There is one thing that dale should do that he wont and that is bring allison on staff. He could help save his job. Layer probably isnt keen on adding a guy that could replace him when the seat is warm. I dont think it will happen for obvious reasons but thats the one thing that could be changed
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 24th, 2014, 9:29 am

I don't know that Jason would come as an assistant. That's a lateral move.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jinxy » January 24th, 2014, 9:56 am

Jon you know we could pay more and make it happen if we wanted it. If hes truly interested in his alma mater then that would help. Duggar isnt going anywhere and they are happy with him. Not like hes going to move up there anytime soon
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Lburglifer » January 24th, 2014, 10:19 am

Have y'all been around here long? LU just opened a 50 million dollar library, have a 500 million dollar building campaign under way. Hired Dot Richardson and are building her a state of the art softball complex! Do you think Jerry is going to hire a BSC assistant from a school LU beats? Not likely, good or bad it will be a splash hire if it happens.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SuperJon » January 24th, 2014, 10:30 am

No one thinks we would, but all of us think that's part of the problem.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Purple Haize » January 24th, 2014, 10:37 am

SuperJon wrote:No one thinks we would, but all of us think that's part of the problem.

Study
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby SumItUp » January 24th, 2014, 11:02 am

Obviously, no one is pleased with the results of the program right now. Dale Layer is going to be the coach. We are not looking for replacements. His first recruiting class after the run to the NCAA tourney and the addition of the new practice facilities looks really good. With better recruits, Layer might look like a basketball genius. This season is not over. There have been disappointing losses and stretches of miserable play, but also there are some exciting players to build around.

Everyone likes to point to Jeff Meyer as the best coach at Liberty. I also remember that the most popular chant at the end of his Liberty career in games when his teams struggled was "Fire Meyer!"
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby VAGolf » January 24th, 2014, 11:38 am

SumItUp wrote:Obviously, no one is pleased with the results of the program right now. Dale Layer is going to be the coach. We are not looking for replacements. His first recruiting class after the run to the NCAA tourney and the addition of the new practice facilities looks really good. With better recruits, Layer might look like a basketball genius. This season is not over. There have been disappointing losses and stretches of miserable play, but also there are some exciting players to build around.

Everyone likes to point to Jeff Meyer as the best coach at Liberty. I also remember that the most popular chant at the end of his Liberty career in games when his teams struggled was "Fire Meyer!"


Who gives a rip about recruiting classes? You know who's had great recruiting classes in football for the past several years? UVA. Do you know what their record is for the past several years? Pathetic. I hate the "well, we've got a solid recruiting class!" argument.

And the practice facilities? As if we haven't had the best facilities in the conference for the past 5 years+. Recruiting classes and practice facilities aren't the problem.

I've been to the games, we have talent. Maybe not as much as a team like CSU or Radford but we have more talent than High Point and Longwood. The talent isn't great, but I don't think it's part of the problem. The culture surrounding our athletics is the whole problem. IMO, Jeff Barber and Dale Layer are the reasons behind the lack of success in basketball.

And let's stop with this, "He inherited a mess" crap. It's his 5th year here, the mess is gone. Also, his best two years here were his first two years. So, if he inherited a "mess," that was a much better "mess" than what we currently have.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Bigsouthking » January 24th, 2014, 11:54 am

SumItUp wrote:Obviously, no one is pleased with the results of the program right now. Dale Layer is going to be the coach. We are not looking for replacements. His first recruiting class after the run to the NCAA tourney and the addition of the new practice facilities looks really good. With better recruits, Layer might look like a basketball genius. This season is not over. There have been disappointing losses and stretches of miserable play, but also there are some exciting players to build around.

Everyone likes to point to Jeff Meyer as the best coach at Liberty. I also remember that the most popular chant at the end of his Liberty career in games when his teams struggled was "Fire Meyer!"


They chanted "Fire Meyer" and his last team went 23-9 a co conference 1st place finish, Big South Tournament Runner up.... maybe that's the problem with LU, their fans dont know what success is.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Lburglifer » January 24th, 2014, 12:26 pm

VAgolf you are making to many valid points. If you follow this there seems to be a number who supported a direction but won't own up to where the trail has lead.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jcmanson » January 24th, 2014, 12:44 pm

jinxy wrote:Jon you know we could pay more and make it happen if we wanted it. If hes truly interested in his alma mater then that would help. Duggar isnt going anywhere and they are happy with him. Not like hes going to move up there anytime soon


We had an assistant's job open last year, if you recall. Allison met with Layer at the Final Four about it.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby Sly Fox » January 24th, 2014, 12:53 pm

For the record, I'd love to see John be a part of an LU staff someday. He's done a nice job toiling undercover in some lower profile head coaching gigs. And he is certainly LU to the core.
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby bballfan84 » January 24th, 2014, 3:48 pm

Bob Davis best coach I have ever had or been around..he could get it done for sure but would need some help recruiting from his assistants
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby jcmanson » January 24th, 2014, 4:03 pm

bballfan84 wrote:Bob Davis best coach I have ever had or been around..he could get it done for sure but would need some help recruiting from his assistants


So, let me get this straight...we want to hire a guy who's a D3 coach with the following records:
can't find record for his 1st season, but just 8 wins
15-10
12-13
16-10
10-15
3-22
4-21
11-15
3-12

He's had 2 seasons with a winning record in 9 years in D3...yep, sign me up!!!
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Re: We don't get a vote, but if we did...

Postby -army56mike- » January 24th, 2014, 4:04 pm

Seriously..... What is the mission statement, team goals or expectations for LU basketball or athletics in general? Is it written or explained anywhere? Is it to compete at the highest level of sports or is it to win at the highest level of sports? Is it to represent the body of Christ and graduate players solely? Or is delivering championship level teams part of the equation? If there is no expectation of winning and striving toward championships, but rather simply mentoring young Christians than maybe Coach Layer is fulfilling his obligation. However if he is supposed to be building a championship program even he needs to stop and consider if be is getting the job done.
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